The first issue I see is that you're trying to contact Sage for license sales - your Sage partner/reseller is the entity you should be communicating with. It sounds like part of the incomplete implementation is a broken relationship with that party. I'd first try to re-establish contact with them and get a handle on where you stand, then depending on the result, look for a new reseller.

For our trouble tickets, I generally use the chat function, my CFO prefers to call. I don't recollect ever using a form submission - get a human, one way or another. The quality of the support varies, but things have been better in the last year after past years of turnover. Having a strong reseller is an important supplement to "factory" support, which is VERY common with ERP's and other vertical market apps. This isn't QuickBooks!

We started with 9.8, which iterated through 13.1, 14.1, 15.1, 16.1 and we're currently on 17.1. The last two versions have shown clear evidence of improvement and active development, and 18.1 is looking to be a major step forward. We'll see in May. Changing our business processes to match how Sage works has paid off with the continuity across upgrades, I've seen failed implementations that resulted from ignorance in trying to get an ERP to do things the old way. 

Back in 2014, I was concerned that the development process seemed stalled and the product was looking pretty zombie-like. I've worked with farming and manufacturing ERP's prior, and that's never a good feeling to have. However, the road-map announcements have been adequately correct in reflecting where things are going, aside from the various false starts on the various mobility and document management initiatives.

The biggest thing for us has been the progress made towards integration with and re-hosting on SQL Server rather than PerverseSQL - hard to be cloud-ready with a shared file database/records manager rather than a true client-server compatible RDBMS. Getting that performance bottleneck addressed is overdue, but is at least finally happening.

With what sounds like a failed implementation, you might consider going to one of the new cloud based systems and starting over. I've seen questions from companies with five users of the product, and I can't imagine WHY you would have something as "robust" or over-powerful as 300 CRE without at least a dozen or more active users - we have 100+ and the infrastructure in place to support it. There are a lot more choices now for new or smaller companies that can go into startup mode, and have subscription pricing that is cashflow friendly compared to up-front licensing and implementation costs.

With respect to that, I will say we paid for our half-million implementation in eight months with increased profitability/reduced costs in our Service division alone. That kind of ROI made all sorts of medicine easier to swallow.

Thanks for the valuable input.  It's definitely a broken development.  They've been running it for at least 10 years.  That's why I'm at the crossroads I'm at.  I'll either have to develop Sage, or something else from the ground up, so it's a very important transitional decision that will be supporting about 100 users directly or indirectly.

I am impressed with many of the technical capabilities. 

I'm not sure if the original partner is still around, but I'll find one to talk to.

Thanks again for your info. 

Our experience with Sage, Procore and TimberScan has been dissapointing.  Few of the features we were sold work as advertised (regardless of the several supposed users that ProCore and Sage provided) and our struggle to get things linked is resulting in frequent service bills of at least $185 per hour.  This does not include outside support costs we suffer updating .dlls in the bowels of the programs. 

We were told recently that Sage found a critical bug regarding attachments to invoices not staying linked.  The first step to correction is upgrading to 18.2.1 which we cannot download (we're on 17 & our credentials don't work - so another $185.00 at least?)

We are looking at alternatives after only 6 months.  Our Office Manager is an experienced Sage user and is frustrated with the constant, expensive and extensive time spent with support.

We cannot recommend any Sage/Timberscan programs.

Thanks Sara for your input.  It sounds like what my company has been dealing with for years. Do you have an internal IT person/staff?  My company didn't until they hired me a month ago. 

Systems of this type generally come with many technical capabilities, but sales reps commonly fail to mention the development required to make any product on this level of Enterprise Management actually usable, much less beneficial to the individual company (ie. full time IT staff to be at all affordable).  They fail to mention "Go Live" just means everything technically works, but months more of tailoring and customizing are required to provide the benefits promised.

IF you don't mind me asking...

Are the issues you've experienced, in your opinion unfix-able, or not affordable to fix?

Do you have a support/maintenance contract?  Are you getting charged for things that you feel should fall under that agreement?

Is your response time adequate when you have issues or questions?

Does support appear to have an understanding of accounting, or do they just parrot published solutions that are available to anyone that searches for them.  If the latter, is it difficult to get to another level of support that understand accounting principals?

Those are the kinds of things that are my primary concerns in this decision.

Thanks again for taking your time to chime in!

Sorry to jump in this, but I can speak from my experience on the questions you have here. First, I agree with pretty much everything Brian and Sara have stated here (specifically portion about needing to move away from Pervasive).

I have managed a fairly large implementation for years on the systems side. Along with this I handle creating reports and tracking down issues that accounting staff may be having. In this time I have experienced a number of growing pains with the system.

As for issues, in most cases our team is able to come up with a solution or workaround for the problems we face within a few hours. This said, from time to time we run into other problems where we have spent countless hours researching and developing new solutions. I also have existing issues where support has recommended updating to 18.x (we last updated at the end of last year and will be doing this again once the supported year end version is released). With our data size, connected applications, and customization the update process leads to about 48 hours of downtime for the system and 40+ hours committed to the update by myself and others in our IT staff. 

On the support, we are not usually unreasonably charged. There is a document that details the scope published in the KB that details what they are willing and not willing to handle. Any customization to the software will require a consultant or in house staff handling the changes.

Quality of support tends to be hit and miss based on the rep. Typically the first tier will track down a document and attempt to walk you through a solution. Commonly this is adequate for issues. If this does not resolve an issue you typically have to schedule a callback based on their what support has available. The reps making the callbacks typically have a solid understanding of accounting or the system based on who you are setup with. We have the Gold level support I would say that about 50% of the callbacks I am able to schedule within 24 hours, but I have had cases where the first available time is three days away. It is also very difficult (maybe impossible) to schedule something outside of business hours. This leads to challenges when support is recommending to reboot the application server or stop services vital to running the application.

I very much appreciate everyones comments and hope more contribute :).  After 10 years, nothing has been integrated into Sage besides a Tsheets csv import. Hopefully the update process at the end of the year will be less cumbersome.

Basically, without proper development, the staff has implemented many different tools over the years outside of Sage.  Basecamp for project management,

sheets for time tracking, Bamboo for HR, Outside contractor for payroll, individual inconsistent outlook address books for contacts, and so many spreadsheets I've barely cracked the surface of that iceberg.

Even basic functions like daily deposits are being done in a spreadsheet with totals going into sage.

IN my very limited month long exposure so far, I've encountered my own frustrations with PSQL, client installs requiring the entire package installation, which seem to crash in the middle for no apparent reason, (with the solution being to install the many prereqs individually), seemingly clunky crystal reports integration, difficulty in locating psql drivers for scripting queries

I'm at a loss as to whether some of these issues are a result of a bad implementation being built on top of for years, or inherent to the product as a whole.  If the latter, I feel like I should use this opportunity to get out while I can, and look to other in-house options.

Thanks again everyone for your input.  The idea of bailing is hard, but without yet having the $$$ numbers, I feel the human and money expense is going to be comparable no matter what decision is made. 

I do know support with other vendors I've implemented, last being Epicore,  regardless of contact method, was provided within 4 (usually under 2, instantly with chat) hours, with escalation if required, same day.

I'm open to hearing more experiences if anyone has them.  Thanks again!

Thanks Sara for your input.  It sounds like what my company has been dealing with for years. Do you have an internal IT person/staff?  My company didn't until they hired me a month ago. 

We use an outside agent – have for years as we rely on Office 365 for all non-accounting IT services and it just works.  Previously we used Foundation – and we will return to them ASAP.  We have been “supported” by Alliance here in Florida.  

Systems of this type generally come with many technical capabilities, but sales reps commonly fail to mention the development required to make any product on this level of Enterprise Management actually usable, much less beneficial to the individual company (ie. full time IT staff to be at all affordable).  They fail to mention "Go Live" just means everything technically works, but months more of tailoring and customizing are required to provide the benefits promised.

IF you don't mind me asking...

Are the issues you've experienced, in your opinion unfix-able, or not affordable to fix?

A combination thereof…  We have itemized our issues in writing a few times. These are some of our concerns but not all:

1. Reports are too generic and any change results in the $185/hour charge – which usually still leaves us needing further work.
2. In 2018 we had to down grade our computers to 32 bit – really?
3. The software will not display on our 4K monitors - again – REALLY?
4. Lien Releases don’t work unless using a subcontractor with a commitment – which was one of key reason for switching software!
5. Contract/ Change Orders don’t integrate
6. Retention can’t reduce in one place to 5% have to re-enter in each line item  I read where QuickBooks was referred to in a negative way by a moderator(?).  Quickbooks can do that. Maybe Sage ought to check their rearview.
7. Cash management is separate from general ledger and it should be a part of your GL - amazing.  See #6.
8. Procore led us to believe Procore and Sage integrated with more detail than it does – it is nothing like was described by the supposed users – thanks. 
9. It is not helpful to our guys in the field when they still have to come into the office to get the detail they need from accounting side. 
10. Costs keep mounting one after the other and frankly is not worth paying Procore/Sage for integrated products that aren’t.

Do you have a support/maintenance contract?  Are you getting charged for things that you feel should fall under that agreement?

Yes we do and we are being charged by Alliance for things we understood were part of the purchase.

Is your response time adequate when you have issues or questions?

Alliance does respond rapidly – however they have limited to worrisome knowledge.  They forwarded the patch that requires 18 – only for us to be unable to download.  Seems 18 might not be ready anyway.

Does support appear to have an understanding of accounting, or do they just parrot published solutions that are available to anyone that searches for them.  If the latter, is it difficult to get to another level of support that understand accounting principals?

We are no where near published solutions.  And again Alliance is limited.

Those are the kinds of things that are my primary concerns in this decision.

Thanks again for taking your time to chime in!

I contacted 2 sage partners/distributers yesterday, and both wrote back saying they don't support sage 300 CR.  Not a positive sign.

Hi pmclachlan,

Partners can change from time to time. If you can PM me your account number, I can tell you who your partner is on record so you can reach out to them.

Thanks!

Phil, you did not day how large a company you have, but I work for a relatively small electrical contractor who purchase Timberline (now Sage 300) before I came to work here in 2002.   Having worked with multiple accounting/job costing softwares in the past, I would rate Sage at the very bottom in customer-responsiveness.  If you are considering significant financial outlay at this time, I would strongly recommend you look for something SQL-based, more user-friendly, with a stronger, more clearly-defined support system.  Unless you have a reliable business partner for Sage, you are pretty much shooting in the dark.  The first layer of support you receive when submitting an issue is generally a newer, lower level individual who is taking you through much of what you could find on the knowledgebase yourself.   I have often spent a lot of time repeating the efforts I have already made personally with a Sage support person, before I can get my problem escalated.  Sometimes it takes two of three escalations or delays of one to three days to reach an individual who really understands how the software works, and can actually provide the help I need.

I understand that the software is strong and very detailed, that the capabilities are widespread, and also know that they are moving towards conversion to SQL.  I just believe that you would be better off spending your money on a company that either originally wrote their software in SQL, or one that has already suffered through the growing pains of making that conversion.   I also have to admit that my strategy has been to remain one version behind on Sage updates, simply because the issues which rise from each update are significant, and take considerable time to work out.  I have no reason to suppose that the conversion to SQL would be any different.

Should you decide to remain with Sage, there are some good business partners out there, and you should do your best to find one.  Whatever your decision, I wish you luck. 

Thanks Pec.  We have about 80 employees total, about 40 being field installers/technicians.  It's getting harder for me to validate recommending we stick with sage.  I understand the Partner/reseller thing, but the difficulty in just finding someone to buy from, and what appears to be very little interest of the Software Company to ensure sales inquiries are responded to by the partners...

I feel like I've already driven by many red flags, it may be time to acknowledge them.

Thanks again Pec!

Phil:

As part of your decision process, you will likely want to consider the functionalities and level of system integration provided by 300 CRE versus that provided by the alternatives. We considered those same things about 10 years ago in our decision to go with the then named Timberline product. We were looking for something that allowed granular tracking within a job beyond that provided by cost-codes (one level down from the job) and categories (one level down from the cost-code). We wanted to use work-orders as desired to track sections of work within a category. For this to work we wanted to be able to link a work-order to a job, cost-code and category. The service management module in 300 CRE provides this functionality. With CRE 300, granularity can also be scaled in the opposite direction by using the contract module to attach several jobs to one contract. In our decision, we were also looking for tight integration between payroll, job-cost and g/l where each of the payroll benefits generated for a given hour of time could be tracked by benefit within a job, and g/l account and would, at the same time, be accumulated along with the wage for that hour by job and by g/l department to provide an accurate total cost for that hour within the job and department – no more need to use some allocation method to attach labour benefits to the wage-cost . We also wanted integration between payroll and a work-order/billing system  where payroll time could be entered once and show up in both areas. The service management module provides this integration and also provides analogous integration between the a/p module and work-order/billing for vendor invoices.

The only other application that was close in providing the above functionalities and integration was an SAP product called “business one” (if I remember correctly) that was made for small-medium sized operations. All other products seemed to lag behind. This may have changed in the last 10 years.

I agree with the comment that the reports provided by Sage in CRE 300 are of limited use. We have developed in house at least 99% of the reports and inquiries that we use. This significantly streamlines workflows for us. Without these in-house reports and inquiries I imagine that our use of spreadsheets would be extensive.

I cannot really comment on support availability since we don’t really use support. We do our own research and come up with our own solutions /work-arounds simply because we have found that most of the support leans towards canned solutions that do not fit our work-flows.

Given the manufacturer’s current timeline for converting the product to a true SQL platform, there are many user suggestions for product improvement that will likely not receive attention for some time. If these suggestions start to receive some attention, the usability of some of the product features will likely increase noticeably as will user satisfaction.

Hope this helps.

Really good post, and reflective of our experience as well.

Taking complicated business processes and automating them is, well, complicated. Without sufficient preparation and up-front investment, any ERP implementation will fail. I've seen a few and heard about a lot more ERP failures than successes. In this thread we've seen multiple references to dropping all the ERP functionality and just using financials to  support spreadsheet spaghetti. That's too bad, but not a function of the product.

When some organizations are successful in using the product, and some are not, the variable is not the product.

Your update sounds like you're using a physical server, the same physical server, for hosting Sage. We've been fully virtualized since starting with 9.8 in early 2013, and every new version has started with a new VM and the use of the migration tools. After the first migration to 13.1, with documentation in hand the update cycle is comfortably completed within a three day weekend.

Our data replica in SQL Server is 16GB, for context on how big our Sage dataset is. Over a 10Gbit internal switch, migrating the entire configuration and data folder with the Sage tools is only a few hours, and since it is non-destructive we have a fall-back plan if anything bad happens (besides multiple backups). See the testing comment later.

The biggest time sink is the client update, which was partially scriptable with 17.1 and promises to be fully scriptable with 18.1. 100+ endpoints and an RDS server are handled with normal RMM tools and a few staff, there is nothing special required. Some other comment about having to use 32-bit Windows is baffling, we've been exclusively 64-bit on the standard desktops since mid-2012.

The server deployment is pre-staged with a testing cycle for a few of the advanced users and an isolated RDS server. That was an important step in building our documentation, but has been less important since the 14.1 cycle confirmed the process.

We've been using Memorial Day weekend since end of year was too busy, that's worked out well. The only delay for integrated apps is our web based service management dispatch product, FieldConnect, and their tech support is consistently very good and has the changeover completed in less than an hour on Tuesday mornings. Since May isn't a hot weather month, not getting techs rolling until 9 AM hasn't been a problem. 

All of our custom reports and our data warehouse, Anterra, shift over without too much hassle. Update a few DSN's here and there, and even the Project list spreadsheet used by Reception and Shipping/Receiving is a single edit update.

In terms of upgrading complex systems, Sage is very middle of the road in terms of difficulty and complexity. The necessary tools are built in and the documentation is more than decent. 

Brian,

We are on 16 going to 17 with the year-end update. Not looking forward to a version upgrade with the year end but our consultant said year-end will be a total upgrade so just do it once. We're thinking about migrating to the cloud can you tell me what hosting service you're using and any tips?

Our partner is Alliance Solutions.  Our sister organization uses Ledgerwood Associates. Believe me, we feel your pain. Having to use outside "modules" to get paystubs to email, having to get our IT folks to root in and fix dllls, double-check admin credentials, and the whole 32-bit deal drive us crazy. Also, our customer invoicing volume is such that it would be great to have a sales tax solution that actually integrates with CRE..we have yet to find one without yet again, doing some customizing - which costs $$.

For support, I generally don't call, I search the knowledgebase (I'm the system admin) and with IT we are usually able to get the matter fixed. My colleagues love calling support - but results are often mixed - but it has improved over the last 4 years I've worked on Sage. I've also used the contacts and materials I've learned through the Timberline conference each year as well. 

Our biggest pain point was transitioning to a cloud server - we had to bring in a Sage consultant and a Timberscan consultant to get everything migrated correctly. These consultants were great and very helpful. But, this did not include the countless hours our IT staff had to "babysit" them on the server due to the level of access required, nor my time testing and re-connecting all our reports and other customized features, and the down-time of our accounting staff. 

We use no line of business apps in the cloud, standard Windows Server Datacenter edition on prem is what we host our VM's on. We use VPN's for remote users to connect to our RDS instance. Nothing complicated or more expensive than it needs to be.

For us, doing the upgrade right before year-end was more hassle for no reason. 17.1 is a new licensing model, a better one in my opinion, but you have to give your Sage server access to the Internet to activate the licensing. Again, I'd suggest doing it (with confirmed backups, as in tested) well BEFORE you get to year-end crunch.

Even better would be to use whatever Windows Server licensing you have and have a new virtual machine instance to migrate to. Having physical servers is ten years behind the tech curve, it should be your default to use only virtualized servers for production. Backup and recovery are massively simplified, your hardware costs will drop dramatically, and management is made easier overall.

Windows Server Standard edition is licensed for two virtual Windows Servers right off the bat, and each additional Server license on a physical machine allows you to add two more Windows Server VM's. It's an easy way to maximize the use of all the horsepower a modern server has, and Sage by itself on a server runs MUCH better than on a server with other roles, like file and print serving.

Hope this helps.

We use My Assistant for paystubs and a huge volume of automated reports - what outside module are you using? What 32-bit deal? We have only 64-bit Windows clients and servers. 

Any ERP requires support and customization, for that matter anything that is just simple financials requires the same for a business with any complexity. Either develop the expertise in house or pay for consulting time. 

We have never been able to make cloud services pencil out for any kinds of cost savings. What has been your ROI for the transition?

We deal with a  virtualized environment but our data size is far larger than what you are working with, which is what ends up leading to the time constraint we consistently run into. Everything else from your post sounds very familiar about the upgrade process.

Phil - I feel your pain.  Sage 300 CRE is not being developed at all anymore.  Users' product enhancement requests seems to be falling on deaf ears over in development, and have been for years.  Something has to change.  I feel like Sage is basically stealing money from its user base at this point.  It seems that they are not listening to their customers at all.  Myself and others are infuriated at their lack of development with this product line.  I would like to complain to the Better Business Bureau, or something of that nature.